I have recommended this book in a number of other thread but have never taken the time to start my own thread for this book.
The book is titled War in Heaven, Heaven on Earth (Theories of the Apocalyptic). It is a collection of essays by a number of prominent scholars which analyze millennialism and apocalyptic belief form a number of different contexts.
Other than Crisis of Conscience & In Search of Christian Freedom I can say that no other book has been as important to me in helping understand the Watchtower movement that this one has. The articles touch on various religious experiences from Native American traditions, Islam, American Evangelitical Christianity, and more. The stricking feature of these articles is that no matter what differant religious tradition you are reading about you will not be able to hold back from saying "that's exactly how it is in the Watchtower!" This book more than any other opened my eyes to apocalyptic belief as happens worldwide and got me to step out of my experience as a JW to see the bigger picture.
One of the biggest gains is in a chapter entitled "A Cusp Catastrophe Model of Cult Conversions" in which psychology professor Leslie L. Downing puts forward a 'cusp model' that illustrates the method by which people are converted to apocalyptic beliefs. It is an amazingly informative article that describes in detail how people come to join apocalyptic movements, as well as how people leave them. If you want to understand the psychology of being a JW (or a member of any other deeply apocalyptic sect) this article is definitely for you.
While this book never specifically mentions the JWs (it does once in passing I believe) the information is dead on in terms of describing movements that are amazingly similar. It helps you understand the wider context of what is going on with groups like the JWs.
Not all articles will provide a direct insight into the JWs and some are written on a very scholarly level and may take a few readings before you understand the thrust of what is being discussed. That being said, I believe the benefits of taking the time to read this book are well worth it.
As far as understanding the social psychology of a movement like the Jehovah's Witnesses and other like minded groups, I cannot think of any other publication that is as insightful as this one. Used copies at Amazon start at around $17.
Here is a link to the book on Amazon.com
drew sagan
JoinedPosts by drew sagan
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An excellent book you need to read on Apocalyptic Belief
by drew sagan ini have recommended this book in a number of other thread but have never taken the time to start my own thread for this book.. .
the book is titled war in heaven, heaven on earth (theories of the apocalyptic).
it is a collection of essays by a number of prominent scholars which analyze millennialism and apocalyptic belief form a number of different contexts.. .
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drew sagan
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It´s me Philosopher
by philosopher inthanks you all for the great info you posted for me yesterday.
it has been very helpful.
i will not talk to my parents right now.
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drew sagan
Putting off speaking to them is a very good decision. I encourage you to reach as much as you can in the meantime. Knowledge is power! Use the power of your local library, its waiting for you. If you didn't know already, here are some books I think can help you alot:
Crisis of Conscience
The Gentile Times Reconsidered
When Time Shall Be No More
The Sign of the Last Days, When?
In Search of Christian Freedom
War in Heaven, Heaven on Earth
It could take up to a year or more just to read those books, but I can't suggest doing so enough before you begin to even attempt speaking with your paretns. The more you read the more you will think and contemplate all of the various factors that are going on in the Watchtower. I also cannot stress enough how good the book War in Heaven, Heaven on Earth is. That book is fantastic is dissecting Apocalyptic religions and movements. JWs are only mentioned in the book once and it is very brief. It may be something you can have and not get in trouble with while you are at home.
On that note I leave you with a nifty riddle written by J.R.R. Tolkien:This thing all things devours:
Birds, beasts, trees, flowers;
Gnaws iron, bites steel;
Grinds hard stones to meal;
Slays king, ruins town
And beats high mountain down. -
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What's Your View Of Jehovah's Witnesses As Individual Persons?
by minimus indo you think they make the best parents?.
the best children?.
the best workers?.
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drew sagan
Folks is folks.
The social environment of the Watchtower movement is an extreme one, and I do believe that it can really bring out the worst in people many times over. -
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Hi everyone I am a newbie and I need help
by philosopher ini have been coming here for some months y i must admit that i am still in.
but i have serious doubts, i mean, i am 99.9% convinced, the jws are not the true religion, but i still live with my family, and they are jws, and i love them.
my parents have a long time been jws, and it is very hard for me to tell them the truth.
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drew sagan
I know exactly what you are going through. If I can stress to you one thing more than anything else it is this:
Calm down and take your time!
Many people face a crisis when they first learn it is not the truth. They think about family and friends and possible ways they can start showing these people what they have found.
Bad Idea
It is the culmination of your own personal experience that has brought you to this point. Your family members may be at that point, they may not be. There is a greater chance they are not at the point of opening up and so it can be very detrimental to talk with them at first. The tendency is to rush into the arena and take on the gladiator, so to speak.
It has been nearly four years since I started questioning the JWs. I continue to learn and understand more about what I went through even now. It took me almost a year to understand the basics of why the JWs are not the truth. I advise you to take your time, study the book and internet sites that are out there (reading Crisis of Conscience, In Search of CHristian Freedom, The Sign of the Last Days When?, and The Gentile Times Reconsidered just for starters). Spend more time on this site as well. Also, not to sound arrogant but I've written a number of long posts describing some of the problems I have observed in the Watchtower that I think touch on some points that are rarely looked upon. Look through my posts and you will find them.
Take your time and don't fall into the trap of thinking that you have to be the savior of your family. Strive to learn and comprehend first. I can give you more books that you can read if you are interested, just send me a pm. -
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If the G.B. and WTS don't have good motives, what is the point.....
by Mightyone inthis may be the topic of an old thread but, if the g.b.
and wts don't have good motives, what is the point of the whole religion?
i mean, it doesn't appear that anybody is getting rich or am i missing something.
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drew sagan
I would say that the benifits people recieve (indcluding the leadership) are primarliy of a social nature.
Many people within the Watchtower system receive benefits from being a part of the movement. What makes it difficult for some to understand is that these benefits aren't as easy to spot as lets say a new corvette in the driveway.
Individual members receive comfort from their beliefs as well as security from being within such a highly controlled environment. I have to admit that sometimes when I look back to life in JWs I don't see all bad. Living within that system brings some control into your life, something definition to what you feel your 'purpose' it.
The idea of advance and prominence within the social environment is another huge factor. Men continue to work their way up the 'theocratic ladder' so to speak, receiving prominence and social prestige from being in such a position. These are things that as people we desire, and if you are in a social environment that provides for it people will reach out.
One of the main reasons the Watchtower has been suffering in the area of member retention is because these benefits can only be reached by a select few. The leadership has been very stingy with what it gives back to the membership, resulting in more people leaving than is necessary. If people (especially young people) where offered more by the organization I doubt that over 50-60% of them would be leaving when they become adults. -
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Diary of a thinking to return ex-Jw
by reniaa ini thought long and hard about posting this but the mis-information on this site finally persuaded me, i already accept many may not accept what i say on face value and get their appologist pens ready for making sure no pro-witness propaganda slips through the net on this site but here goes....... i've been on this forum for a few months my first post was about how i was thinking of returning to jw's and at my sisters recommendation to look at this site for both sides of the story before taking that step.. i faded from jw's 10/11 years ago now i left my hubby at the time divorced him to going on to have more relationships and kids, i was definately given the impression after asking on this site and with what i read that if i tried to return i might face df or at least a jc but definately a couple of elders questioning me over what i've been upto these last few years - none of these have happened.
i talked with an old jw friend (yes i do have then and she never shunned me quite happily accepted an offer of coffee from me and my asking for a chat) i told her i was interested in going back and was very frank about what i done in the last 10 years but not sure how returning was done now, she quite happily said she go ask for me to find out.. result!
she came back this week and said "all i had to do was goto meetings again" and an offer of a study was there for me if i wanted it to explore the open doubts that i had expressed i now had.. not quite the fire and brimstone welcome this site led me to believe would happen.. i will keep you posted with further updates if i feel the need to put them in future.. .
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drew sagan
reniaa, you said
I thought long and hard about posting this but the mis-information on this site finally persuaded me, I already accept many may not accept what I say on face value and get their appologist pens ready for making sure no pro-witness propaganda slips through the net on this site but here goes......
To be perfectly clear, I personally have never nor would ever base my decision to join/leave a religion based upon information found on one internet forum. There is lots of great information here, there is lots of bad. I personally feel there was a lot better information and discussion here 1-2 years ago, but people have to move on and there is nothing you can do about it. JWD is absolutely not the be all end all.
Result! she came back this week and said "all I had to do was goto meetings again" and an offer of a study was there for me if i wanted it to explore the open doubts that I had expressed i now had.
Again my guess is that many here have stated that you would be in big trouble if you went back. As can be found on most internet boards, people tend to spout off about the 'facts' when in actuality certain things are actually unknown. I know why many here would say such things, and to a point they are justified in their viewpoint. At the end of the day though what really may come about in a particular situation is never an exact science. I know Elder bodies that would have treated a person like you very poorly, but then turned around and treated the next person that came through the door very nice. The past may follow you, it may not. Speculation about what could happen is just that, speculation.
I think the bigger picture here is that the treatment you receive when/if you do return doesn't really prove anything about the Jehovah's Witness religion.
I've known nice Jehovah's Witnesses and I have known ones that are not so nice. To me they are like most people I have met, no better no worse. Just folks.
I left the Jehovah's WItnesses because after a close and detailed study of there religions history I came to the conclusion that the divine power of God was not exclusively guiding these people. I realized that the stories their magazines spout off as truth, such as an invisible Jesus Christ choosing them in the year 1919, were just stories. Tales that were constructed that give weight to the movement and help solidify it as a major religion. WIthout these stories they would be just another group of fringe protestants, with these stories they are able to put themselves at the center of the divine plan. Many things they teach about themselves never really tells us anything about God at all. They are legends, used to establish the JW faith. Nothing more, nothing less.
Of course to understand Jehovah's Witnesses history as nothing divine in origin, but instead in purely rational terms puts you on the outside of their faith. The Watchtower is only interested in members who believe wholesale the information they give, including all of the teachings they have that point to themselves as the only true restored religion on earth.
Long ago I realized that while JWs always say they use 'nothing but the Bible' it became very clear to me that the certainly do. It is simply not possible to prove using the Bible alone that Jesus Christ visited the Watchtower headquarters in 1919 and subsequently chose the leaders he found as the foundation for his restored church. I challenge any JW to prove this using the Bible alone. The truth of the matter is that you can only come to such teachings by using the BIble alone as well as interpreting that Bible through the lens of a Jehovah's Witness who supplements the Bible with Watchtower history.
To me it is very obvious that such things are fabrications which show a reality the Watchtower wishes to be true, rather than a desire to actually find what really is true. -
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Scientific Explanation for how JW's are made....
by Bring_the_Light in.... out of otherwise normal people.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1tmzascr-i.
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drew sagan
That's about how it is.
Invite people into an environment that is conductive to converting the views and opinions of attendees. -
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Windfall profits for Dummies
by JeffT inhttp://online.wsj.com/article/sb120977019142563957.html?mod=opinion_main_review_and_outlooks.
windfall profits for dummies.
may 3, 2008; page a10this is one strange debate the candidates are having on energy policy.
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drew sagan
High prices are due to a number of factors. Current production levels of domestic product is one factor, but is a smaller factor some other things, the major one being speculation and the other is the falling dollar. Currently our oil reserves are actually very good and contrary to what the president has said new refineries are on their way.
There are so many factors contributing to this problem and there is simply no short term fix that any legislation can change at this point. Oh, and ANWR is a drop in the bucket, don't even try to say that is the answer. -
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a couple of movies I don't get
by Hortensia ini watched "children of men" a couple of nights ago.
it was pretty interesting, but i have to say i didn't get it completely.
maybe because i missed the beginning.
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drew sagan
Cinematically, Children of Men is an amazing piece of work. Watch the scene where Clive Owen carries the baby through the battlefield. That gos on for what seems like 10 minutes, single camera, massive special effects, and no edits. It is absolutely amazing.
Two scenes I found very exhilarating was when the car is ambushed by the people hidden in the forest, and then the scene were they escape at night and he pushes the car down the hill to try and kick start it while being chased. Those two scenes are extremely realistic and well done IMO. The protagonist comes off as no super-hero, but instead as a very vulnerable person (like all of us).
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Tom Cabeen to be interviewed on TV
by Nathan Natas inposted by jimwhitney on sat - may 3 - 5:25pm: .
in reply to: tom cabean to be interviewed on cable tv posted by jimwhitney on sat - may 3 - 5:25pm:.
posted by flatlander on sat - may 3 - 6:08pm: .
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drew sagan
Thanks for posting Nathan Natas, I'm going to make sure to tune in. I catch that program every once and a while. While I'm no Catholic, I like to watch because for all of the criticisms you hear of Catholicism (especially when you are in a JW, Ex-JW, Protestant atmosphere) I like to hear a little bit from the other side. There is actually some interesting dialog on there from time to time (not always, but sometimes).
The reasons why people end up in some Churches vary. Some people are not just as obsessed with doctrine as other and find going to a mainline traditionalist church something acceptable to them. To be to harsh on such decisions is cold and unwarranted.